Jun 262008

Liberty Dollar More than seven months after the federal government raided the offices and warehouse of the Liberty Dollar organization (formerly known as NORFED), the much ballyhooed lawsuit has finally been filed … sort of. It took until June 9, 2008 for an actual formal request for the return of the materials to be made, and until June 17, 2008 for a lawsuit demanding the return of the items confiscated to be filed. Why did it take so long? Well according to Bernard von NotHaus they couldn’t find a lawyer to take the case. Not surprising since attorney’s seldom take cases without merit.

Unfortunately, this lawsuit is NOT the class action suit that has been advertised on the Liberty Diollar website for the last seven months. The solicitation there still reads-

Have you been damaged by the FBI raid on the Liberty Dollar?Are you mad as hell?! If so, you are encouraged to fill out this Form.

There are three ways you qualify for this Class Action Lawsuit and compensation for damages:1.) If you are owed an order and want to get your money back,
2) Or have paper certificates and want to redeem them for silver,
3.) Or have digital Liberty Dollars and wish to redeem them for silver,
I urge you to demand redemption or the return of your money by joining this Class Action Lawsuit (CAL). Your participation is absolutely critical. If you don’t join the WSL you will not get your money back.

But the lawsuit makes no mention of getting your money back for unfulfilled orders. This was the very issue I had with Liberty Dollar back in November (see Why The Liberty Dollar Class Action Lawsuit Is A Non Starter). The lawsuit that has finally been filed a) is not a class action lawsuit, b) does not address unfulfilled orders, and c) actually has nothing to do with Liberty Dollar or Bernard von NotHaus. It’s a suit filed by the warehouse that stored the precious metals backing the Liberty Dollar certificates and 12 individual holders of those certificates. So, even if you signed up for the class action lawsuit you’re still not being represented in this suit, unless you happen to be one of those 12 people. And if you had an outstanding order with Liberty Dollar it is still not being honored. In other words, you’ve still been ripped off by von Nothaus and Liberty Dollar.

However, all is not lost if you are a true believer, both von Nothaus and Liberty Dollar are completely prepared to separate you from even more of your money based on empty promises. That’s right, new orders for new liberty dollars arestill being taken. In fact, they never stopped being taken. And here’s what the man who accepted your money and gave you nothing in return has to say to all of those suckers … er … customers who have unfulfilled orders-

The Office has received several calls regarding orders placed before the Raid. And questions about how can we take new orders when we haven’t even filled the earlier orders? First, I would like to do nothing more than fill your order. But the material for your order was seized. I simply do not have the material to fill your order. The government has it and you should write to Assistant US Attorney Thomas Ascik and demand the return of your property.

In other words, he’s got the material to fill new orders, and he’s got plenty of money to live on, to pay his bills and the companies bills, to take a national tour, and even to announce his retirement. But he doesn’t have the money to fulfill or refund your orders or honor the checks that he wrote. And you still don’t think this sounds like a scam?

My last post on this subject is still generating comments. But instead of answering them there, I thought I’d address them in this post.

GeoBeo.com wrote-

We’re not talking about it being stolen by some thugs, we’re talking about the value of the LD being stolen by the government. Why do the people have no legal standing to sue the government? Is the government above the law and untouchable?

First off, yes, we are talking about “some thugs” as that’s all the government really is. Second, yes again, the government IS above the law and untouchable.

Paul Rye wrote-

I think your analogy does not apply to the Liberty Dollar situation for many reasons.

If a car dealer sells a car and later says he cannot deliver it because it was stolen, then you have a case against the dealer because the dealer is responsible for the car until it is delivered. In the Liberty Dollar situation, however, there was no intent to deliver all the gold and silver that backs the paper. Certificate holders had the option of redeeming certificates for metal, but very few did. So, that gold and silver was the property of the paper certificate holders and Liberty was essentially storing it for them. It did not belong to Liberty.

My analogy relates perfectly to the still unfulfilled orders for medallions. Liberty Dollar accepted money in exchange for coin-like Liberty Dollar medallions. They failed to deliver them and are now refusing to either deliver the medallions OR refund the money they accepted.

And if the majority of certificate holders had no intention of redeeming them then how have they been harmed by the metals being stolen? They still have their certificates. No harm will come to them until they try to redeem the certificates.

Paul Rye continues-

Current law provides that if a business is engaged in criminal activity, its assets may be seized, but it seems to me the question here is, who’s assets were the gold and silver, Liberty’s or the certificate holders? I’m not aware of any charges being brought against the certificate holders. So, the Government might be justified in seizing Liberty’s assets if they plan to bring charges against Liberty in a timely manner, but they are not justifying in seizing the gold and silver backing the certificates unless they are also planning to charge the certificate holders with a crime.

According to the US Mint everyone attempting to use Liberty Dollar certificates was violating the law. If you read the affidavit for the warrant it includes “unnamed co-conspirators”. That would be the holders of the certificates. And they have yet to bring criminal charges against anybody, but I don’t see any lawsuit by Liberty Dollar or von NotHhaus to get his property back, despite his continuing collection of funds for that purpose.

Our Law writes-

On the flip-side, if you, Aahz, were in a verbal agreement (verbal contract) to be entrusted with an article of someone else’s property and at gun-point your house was robbed and completely cleaned out, which includes the taking of the entrusted article of property, would you gladly reimburse your loss and do nothing to recover the stolen article? Because you did say, “A third party violating their rights has no bearing on that contract. They are still 100% responsible for upholding their end of the contract even if that third party is the government.” According to you, it would make more sense to just reimburse the loss instead of asking for help to recover and return the article of property. Liberty Dollar is doing what they feel is “best.” After all, how can you refund anything when you are completely cleaned out and left for broke and desolate? (Does this make sense now?)

Of course I would reimburse the person for their loss! I would not do so “gladly”, I’d be rather angry about the situation, but I would instantly recognize that I was responsible to them. I would then seek to recover the materials as well. The two actions are not mutually exclusive. Would I ask for help in my recovery efforts? Possibly, but I would not require that the person who lost their property support my actions financially or suffer a complete loss, which is what Liberty Dollar is doing.

And I’m SOOO tired of people claiming that LibertyDollar and/or von Nothaus are “cleaned out and left for broke and desolate”. They’re still in business! They collect money daily! Bernard is continually taking speaking engagements and is evenstarting up a national tour! How is this broke or desolate?

Our Law continues-

Aahz, what you fail to realize is that everyone is responsible for keeping their agreement in a contract “and” unless the contract states that asking for the other party’s assistance in recovering their own lost or stolen property in any way that seems fit should never happen, then your statement of, “the whole thing was a scam from day one” would be most fitting and quite plausible.

But Liberty Dollar and Bernard von Nothaus have not “asked” for assistance, they’ve demanded it. Check the lawsuit solictitation page above. It states in no uncertain terms “If you don’t join the WSL you will not get your money back.” That is not a request, it’s a shifting of responsibility after the fact.

  2 Responses to “Liberty Dollar / Hawaii Dala Lawsuit Finally Filed”

  1. i’m a late-comer to the discussion, but i just found out about the gov’t raid on liberty dollars and i’m pissed! if i had a receipt of payment for something valuable and the government seized the goods, i would put responsibility on the government’s shoulders to give back what is rightfully mine. if all that gold and silver had been stolen by NORFED to back their liberty dollars then i would put the burden of recompense to them for selling me stolen loot. the fact that it was the gov’t stealing the metals means that there was no way to defend against it so i wouldn’t hold NORFED responsible. at this point i wouldn’t trust NORFED because of their slowness to pursue justice (if liberty dollars weren’t a scam before the raid, NORFED’s lack of action has made it look more like one now) and i don’t understand why the people wronged haven’t banded together without the liberty dollar makers.
    on a side note, you asked how certificate holders have been harmed if most of them never intended to redeem their liberty dollars for metals…they’re harmed because the value of the certificates was based on the gold/silver/etc. that’s why people accepting the liberty dollars had any faith in their value. on the other hand, according to prices fetched by liberty currency auctioned over ebay following the raid, the value may have spiked because of the whole debacle. funny how that worked out.

  2. Another thing to look at here is that a lot of the money made by LD was, in fact, silver coinage. The people with these have not lost money but, rather b/c of current silver prices, lost only about .30 per coin since silver is now at 19.70 an ounce! People who bought them in earlier years MADE money as they used to be 10.00 each to buy.

    And, now that the government stole the assets of Ld, and the LD certificates have no silver/gold to back them, they are worth the same as the Federal Reserve’s bills – backed by NOTHING — right? :^)

    And, actually, at least the smaller bills are actually worth more than Fed small bills as ebay buyers are collecting them and paying more than face value!

    I think if the government’s report that using LD’s went to court, they also would have their ideas shot down. How in the world, in the “land of the free” can the government tell me what I can and cannot use to trade someone for a goods or a service? They sure cannot say I am not allowed to offer something even like a load of firewood for payment if I want to! Bartering is NOT illegal – and what better way to barter than with precious metals?

    I cannot vouch for Mr. Nauthouse’s motives, character, etc. since I do not know him. However, I can say that I like the idea of being able to have silver to use. And the longer I keep the stuff for myself, the more it will eventually be worth – even if that is 80 years down the road.

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